The Wisdom of No Escape

1

There are so many functions and values delivered by Excel that it is not something I could or plan to escape from soon :slight_smile:. Having said that, Coda delivers lots of spreadsheet functionality, that because its delivered in the context of a Doc, makes it a lot more valuable for so many use cases than Excel.

So, rather than escaping Excel I would suggest adding easy embed support (already in the Suggestion Box with many votes) and develop a Pack to sync to Excel Tables. There are many use cases where this two way sync will be a valuable addition to Coda and the millions of users like me that have Office 365.

Aside: Microsoft is building its own component doc solution with the advent of the Fluid Framework that will no doubt leverage Excel ranges, sheets and workbooks in many innovative ways. The Fluid PM at MS Build 2020 mentioned they have 185 member team on that project so far.

1 Like
2

Hey David! Its been over 2 years since I escaped and I havenā€™t looked back. In fact now, whereas Excel used to get me exxcited, it is now dread when I am sent a spreadsheet and have to start digging through those ā€˜archaicā€™ formulas =vlookup(a7:g30,k193:z391)!

Earnestly, can you give some good use cases where excel beats Coda? The few times Iā€™ve opened it up is when I need to do some disparate math next to each other ā€¦ but even that could be accomplished with canvas formulas.

2 Likes
3

Thanks for the comment @David.Greenwood! An Excel/Office 365 Pack is a great idea (and is on our backlog). I definitely still use Excel/Google Sheets for certain use cases (e.g. one-off data analysis). Wrote a bit more in this thread about this topic which may be of interest to you: Row and Column Analysis

2 Likes
4

Backlog is great news! Thanks for the article, very helpful

1 Like
5

Hi Joseph,

It seems a lot has gone on in Excel in the last 2 years especially because of the new Excel Calc Engine and Dynamic Arrays, Custom Functions, JS Add-ins, new Office Scripts, advances in Power Query, etc.

As I am new to Coda (and keen), I am looking to replicate some Excel models and see what comparative
use cases limits it has so Iā€™ll get back to your question when I have more to offer.

2 Likes
6

The dynamic arrays in Excel are pretty powerful, and quite similar to how formulas work in a table in Coda. The spill range on the new functions is a little weird getting used to if you are used to traditional cell references. The other trick thing with the spill range is that if you happen to have a value in range of cells where the formula is supposed to ā€œspill,ā€ it prevents the formula from spilling down.

This is where I think novice to intermediate Excel users might face some issues because if you donā€™t structure the table right and/or prevent other users from messing up the table (perhaps through locking cells), it will be difficult to deploy the tool to your team for collaboration.

2 Likes
7

I think it is misleading to compare Excel and Coda. There is some overlap, where it comes to list handling in Excel. Excel is just a completely different tool as far as flexibility goes. I would never even attempt to do a balance sheet and income statement in Coda, or some financial planning.

When it comes to list handling, yes. Coda has a lot more flexibility. But that aspect of Coda is better compared to Access, than to Excel.

2 Likes
8

I agree @Piet_Strydom.

I have tried to replicate some Excel Models in Coda and in some cases it is simply not possible, and with the current row focused addressability it is cumbersome to address/work with cells dynamically.

Having said that, my original point was about the critical importance of leveraging and integrating Excel ranges, tables, sheets, etc. and focusing on the flexibility, strengths and differentiation that Coda has and needs to build out.

The coming Microsoft Fluid Framework is designed to do just that with the new " Docs" and its web based version of Excel, etc. See recent fluid video summary

9

I am using both Coda and Notion. (If I had found Coda first, I might not have gone to Notion at all.)

But whichever one of Coda, Notion and Fluid provides meaningful integration with traditional documents will have a massive advantage. But I donā€™t even want to think about the complexity that would be involved.

Fluid could be interesting, but seems to be pure vapourware at the moment. And with MSā€™s recent track record on Windows 10 updates, the changes and backtracking on OneNote, the various versions of all their products, I unfortunately do not hold out much hope for Fluid.

10

And just in general - I love these new tools, but in the major organisations that I have worked with, people still send out spreadsheets, have them collated, and then posted onto Sharepoint, or Boxā€¦

I am not sure how one goes about improving uptakeā€¦

11

@David.Greenwood @Piet_Strydom Iā€™m pretty surprised to hear that oneā€™d have problems with doing a balance sheet of financial planning in Coda.

It takes some effort to start thinking the Coda way (in organized records and not simple two-dimensional sheets with freeform cells), but in the end youā€™ll be gratified with a solid model, and not something that is a table simply because with all the cell formatting it looks like a table.

There are some shortcomings in display: e.g. Coda doesnā€™t look as compact, and you cannot organize records horizontally (i.e. have a transposed table where properties go top to bottom and entries go left to right) without compromising your model. But I hope those get addressed eventually.

12

I have nearly 150 rows in my current balance sheetā€¦ Now you want me to turn that on its side, display it in less than optimal sizing, so that I can be ā€œgratified with a solid modelā€ ?

Itā€™s good to be positive about a product, but too much optimism can be just as damaging as being pessimistic. Excel is jut better at some things, than what Coda is. Doesnā€™t make Coda bad.

2 Likes
13

I donā€™t want anyone do anything :slight_smile: Iā€™m only saying that quite often the frustration for Coda comes out of misunderstanding its approach to data design. Itā€™s much closer to databases (think Access, SQL, Airtable lastly) than spreadsheets. Itā€™s venturing into software engineering territory sometimes (or maybe thatā€™s just me). Thatā€™s my idea from hanging around for more than a year in this community and with Coda in general.

And yes, for some uses spreadsheets are often a much better choice. Fewer constraints, easier to get from zero to problem solved.

P.S. Iā€™ve been working as a Coda expert for hire on some of the most complicated financial docs. Think of the setup where each row not just contained what could be a simple cellā€™s value in Excel, but it also had a table where each row described each of those other rows and how they should be calculated. A super easy feat in spreadsheets became a very complicated setup in Coda. Yet the client wanted it done specifically in Coda because he believed in the tech and how in the long run it would be better than running those calculations in spreadsheets.

2 Likes
14

Anyone thinking Coda or Airtable or Notion are apps that are going to kill spreadsheets are laboring under some serious misinformation and misplaced perceptions.

Databases and spreadsheets are two very different animals despite there being some overlap, more so in recent years than in the early incarnations of each. Coda and its like applications are database (read row and record) centric whereas spreadsheets are predominantly cell centric.

If anything, spreadsheet development is moving more towards incorporating elements of database design and operation than databases are moving towards spreadsheets.

Spreadsheets for personal computers have existed alongside databases since the late 70s when VisiCalc and DBase, both of which I used in the first decade after their release, became the first practical incarnation of each on microcomputers. And there were database and spreadsheet like applications on mainframes before that. Each of these categories have developed significantly since then with neither one showing signs of fading away.

I can see no change to this scenario in the foreseeable future but that is not to say that development down the track will not see that happen. Maybe at some stage in the future a savvy and skilled development team will be able to effectively combine the features of both into one application and provide a user with the ability to switch between the two capabilities as required merely by changing a setting, even possibly down to an individual cell level. Nothing should be ruled out.

Until then there is a definitive space for the two applications and each has elements which the other cannot duplicate to anywhere near the same degree, or even at all.

3 Likes
15

Yes you are correct, I think the excitement here is that spreadsheets have been high-access low barrier to use, whereas databases have been low access high barrier to use. As such, many functions that would have been better suited to database use were shoe-horned into spreadsheets. What we are now seeing is a huge portion of spreadsheet share migrating to the more appropriate easier-to-use database tools.

3 Likes
16

Iā€™m trying to think, but what canā€™t be done in Coda | a database format that can be done in spreadsheets?

Seems to me that dbs are a strict superset (with perhaps some performance costs when calculating things like running totals).

Help me understand what Iā€™m missing

17

There is so much that spreadsheets, particularly an application like Excel, can do that is simply not possible in a database.

Addressing individuals cells cannot be done in a database. Or if there is a workaround, which I am not aware of, it will generally sacrifice something in the process.

The sheer number of functions in Excel compared to Coda or Notion or Airtable puts its capabilities way ahead in terms of fit for purpose. You donā€™t use a screwdriver to drive a nail although you possibly could in some scenarios! However, the outcome will not be ideal!

Excel and similar spreadsheet applications effectively have their own programming language built in which can be used to extend capabilities far beyond the basic capabilities that many users, even perhaps the majority of users, are content with and which I defy anyone to be able to fully replicate in Coda, Notion or Airtable.

I have seen almost full blown accounting applications designed in Excel and whilst this may be possible to some extent in Coda, Notion, Airtable and the like, again, I defy anyone to produce results comparable to what can be achieved using Excel.

Also, producing output in report form that would be suitable for dissemination to internal managers and externally to clients, banks, investors or other interested parties is easily possible in Excel but not currently in applications like Coda, Notion and Airtable. At least not without the use of a third party application linked via an API.

I have been working with personal computers since the 70s when I bought my first computer, a Commodore VIC 20, and have yet to see an application that can claim to make all other applications redundant. It has not happened despite some claims to the contrary.

A properly designed and purpose built application will beat a ā€œjack of all tradesā€ application hands down every time in terms of capability, performance and results. To program the capability to outperform purpose built applications into an ā€œall you will ever needā€ application would likely bog down that second application to the extent that it would be unusable in most scenarios.

That is not to say that it will not one day happen but until it does then it is a case of horses for courses in terms of using software that is fit for purpose in both design and capabilities.

I could list the many, many instances where spreadsheets are THE go to tool that cannot currently be surpassed but such information is readily available from reputable websites and space here does not really suit that analysis.

I encourage anyone thinking of dropping spreadsheets to look beyond the hype, and there is a lot of that around the new breed of apps like Coda, Notion and Airtable.

1 Like
18

Hi @Peter_Wills,

I believe that - like most of the times - the overall topic relies in the ā€œandā€, rather than ā€œorā€.

Totally quoting @Piet_Strydomā€™s post:

Any solution, by nature, is optimal within certain boundaries.
I agree that many excel solutions could be done in a relational perspective, but itā€™s not necessarily better or easier.

My idea an my experience suggest that more often than not, the spreadsheet approach is the screwdriver.
Sometimes a more structured oriented approach would be really simpler.

Anyway, the campaign is not: ā€œLetā€™s translate every spreadsheet into Codaā€.
Rather, how a data-driven application can benefit of a solution that aggregates collaboration, document editing, automation and interaction.

After all, Microsoft - with Fluid - and Google - with Tables - are themselves implementing similar approaches in order to add such capabilities.

Letā€™s enjoy and be part of this.
Cheers!

6 Likes
19

Interesting conversation. I had zero knowledge of Excel (beyond Cell A1+A2), I donā€™t know what Pivot table is, never done any Coding in my life and donā€™t understand Databases (most of the above is a foreign language to me). Nut, itā€™s interesting that some of my Coda challenges that Iā€™ve overcome are things that even the Coda support told me are not possible to do in Coda. Itā€™s so intuitive, I always find a way to get that ā€œnot possibleā€ thing working (thanks to in part spending hours watching @Paul_Danyliukā€™s and otherā€™s YouTube videos over an over - thank Paul! Youā€™re a madman!). So my 2 cents, I do think it can be a huge financial tool. Iā€™ve done those tables that are 100+ columns wide and some 10K+ rows. I now use it to run my entire business including finance with zero integrations (Iā€™m not there YET), CRM, etc. I live in Coda vs. bouncing around (Not sure I should say this, but I donā€™t even use DropBox anymore - shhhhhhh). I know Iā€™m speaking out of my league, but for a non- technical person, itā€™s the only tool Iā€™ve EVER used that has enabled me to create the likes of enterprise software and Iā€™m 100% in control of all changes, additions and my interface. Each update feels more and more that they are going in a direction that will hopefully be a full alternative to Microsoft (not that I have anything against them). Thanks for sharing in this community and jumping into your convo. You guys are the equivalent of a college course!

8 Likes
20

This exactly. People are used to the mental model and flexibility of spreadsheets, so the world is shoehorned into a spreadsheet.

Turns out, everything can be done in tables. There are tradeoffs, but they trade consistently in favor of table data models in the context of most tasks.

Spreadsheets are essentially a directed acyclic graph under the hood. The advantage is that they are very flexible at the outset, the disadvantage is that they are brittle if you ever have to make changes.

Iā€™m down for the challenge :slight_smile: Coda is Turing complete, so it is as expressive as any possible programming language. Itā€™s also much more elegant and understandable.

2 Likes