Coda AI new credit limit system, buy extra credits?

Not discounting anything you’re saying since most of it is true! Though, I personally disagree that GPT3 is good enough in most cases. GPT4 is a massive improvement from my experiences… but it’s not like Coda offers GPT4 anyway :upside_down_face:

When you look at how consumers pay for phone/data plans, people that can afford it usually pick an Unlimited Plan. From what I understand, most people never actually use all the data unlimited has to offer. But for convience sake, it’s comforting and easy knowing that I, in 99% of cases, will always have enough data for whatever I need to do.

I believe this is what consumers want. Why have to worry about credits every time I use Ai, when I can pay a few dollars more every month to not have to worry about it?

It does mean you’re technically loosing money, but I think for a majority of people, the ease of use is worth it.

I think what would be ideal is having the best of both worlds! Though it’d be difficult since if the credit usage became more then the price of unlimited, people would switch to unlimited and ‘abuse’ the system…

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Adding to this thread! I have burnt all my credits and will now be stuck for 3 weeks until I can buy more.

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Thanks for the polite reply! I’ve never used GPT4 personally, but I have no doubt it’s way better than GPT3.5 turbo. The question here is whether it is necessary for most AI automation tasks. To make an analogy, you can use a ferrari to go from home to work, and the experience will definitely be better. But maybe a normal car can do the job good enough.

Of course it will depend on the particular use-case. In what tasks do you think the improvement significant enough to justify the cost difference?

I do agree that some consumers would pay extra in the sense that you said, but I’m not so sure about the teams / small business segments.

It wouldn’t bother me if Coda allows users to overpay through a subscription as long as it retains the possibility of credits / tokens as well, if they are not overpriced of course.

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I ran out of credits on Friday afternoon as I was experimenting with some text analysis. Tiny little AI project and I can’t for my life understand how that can be my maximum of AI. My Coda dashboard says I’ll have to wait for a month for them to be renewed. I immediately reached out to customer support but I have still not heard back, 4 days later. In the meantime, I’m locked out of using the AI function. I’ll be honest and say that this was a pretty crappy user experience.

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I have the same vision as you (emi) about ia and use.

What I would like to see: Coda could set up something like CHATGPT for their APIs. Pay according to credit and be able to set limits to avoid burning up the credit card.

We pay the same thing with a little AI, so we won’t complain :).
For my purposes, that’s enough.

The notional solution, as you say, is untenable for me in the long term.
I don’t care how much it costs to make this AI work.
And I don’t want to “necessarily pay for others.”

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Good lord… making new email accounts and arbitrarily adding fake doc makers to my workspace just to access more credits!?

Pricing strategies like this make me wonder if your monetization and product teams have a proper understanding of who a paying Doc Maker is.

AI is extremely helpful in the right contexts, most of which involve a bit of scale. In this framework the average AI system I’m building in Coda is gonna burn these credits out in less than a week (3000), and still for limited business value.

Strong appreciation for @Emi_Jimenez clear point that not being able to buy new credits basically removes the AI feature. This is largely because using AI will be too risky as a doc maker.

Part of the issue is that many of the use cases for AI within an operating coda doc system involve the system generally becoming dependent on it. Once credits run out, an AI enabled system isn’t going to “gracefully degrade”, its just going to stop working. This is less of an issue for non systemic uses, which have low business value at best, such as one off “improve this copy on the canvas”, but quite honestly… Who would move towards coda for this? Most of us are paying for GPT 4 and 3+ other AI enabled app subscriptions already - this is extremely marginal value. At present the ai enabled “generate this X type of table with Y columns” is lower quality / reliability of output than just pulling directly from the template library. The only place where Coda AI is elevating Coda competitively from a savvy doc maker’s perspective is as an extension of coda’s formula language and as an integrated capability within tables. Coda with AI is the only collaborative low code platform that enables scalable structured AI within a relational database framework. Incidentally, Coda needs users to believe in this value, as it is one of the few areas where the user’s payoff feels appropriate to user’s time, money and energy invested in the product.

Unfortunately, using this differentiated value (the only market differentiating value of Coda AI in my opinion) creates inherent user and system dependencies, and also depends entirely on reliable scalability. No amount of “actively managing monthly AI usage from an analytics dashboard” is going to remotely address this or enable “moderate AI usage” with any meaningful or differentiating value for a doc maker.

And this is why we pay for Coda in the first place. Free users can toy around with a slightly more advanced Google docs. Actively paying “Doc Makers” are actually collaborative solution designers building systems to solve problems for their businesses and teams. Once we make something, others depend on it. If we’re going to use a feature at all, we’re going to use it in the context of building a system to take responsibility for addressing a business issue. Why else would someone spend 30+ dollars a month, invest time to learn a bespoke formula language, and invest time to model their problem domain in relational database tables - all within a low code cloud based “doc that functions like your own custom app”?

I certainly appreciate the need for a pricing change in light of AI usage costs, and as a long time paying Coda user, I am excited to support that. I also appreciate the desire to incentivize growing doc maker numbers within workspaces, which seems the only logical motivation for this monetization strategy. Shoehorning product feature usage to do so shows a deep disconnect with what and who a doc maker is. For many of us, we’re trying to find more ways to bring value to our collaborators, and most often when those collaborators get turned on to Coda at a level where they want to become a paying doc maker, its because they realize its relevance to their broader work in completely unrelated projects and organizations - and as such they are going to do so in their own separate workspaces where credit counts won’t pool for them.

Each time Coda introduces a pricing framework that feels deeply out of step with the core user base, I find myself having to ask if I can keep trusting the platform to grow in ways that will enhance the future of my work, or if it would be better to continue looking elsewhere.

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Hi David,

I to have been struck by Credit limit issue and my Partner is not all that happy about it either.

I can’t help but agree with @Nate_Gerber2 comment here.

I wouldn’t consider my workspace a heavy consumer but it is used daily. I have just done a simple test on a table that uses an AI column and a “Refresh AI Button” and that single action cost me 10 credits. For context here, the input, probably 500 characters, asked for a social media post suggestion. Pretty small output and as I say, the cost of that was 10 credits. If that’s all I requested, I could probably run 10 to 14 requests per day and that might keep me within the 3000 pcm credit limit.

For all my excitement on recent features, as you are aware, this seems like the antithesis of collaboration. Certainly in my case. I build utilities for my collaborators to use, to engage them, to aid their collaboration and as Nate said to help us achieve outcomes.

If the cost is to high, then perhaps aid in helping the community to help itself via Packs. As per much earlier requests, create the connectors that allow us to use our own Accounts. In the beta, it was asked and suggested that Doc Makers should be able to use their own GPT accounts that they’re already paying for. This means Coda can still leverage the value of integrated AI, just at Doc Makers expense for the most part, and thus limiting your own operating costs with respect to AI. Still have some to augment such as “create me a table on X”.

Very frustrated @DavidK and I find myself, like others apparently, having to re-evaluate what I had hoped would be a fantastic marriage but now looks more like a fleeting romance that’s going to send us back to old habits and routines.

Nick

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I don’t mind a credit system. What I do mind: getting the incessant “Your workspace is out of AI credits” popup every time I open a document. Make it stop. It’s especially annoying on mobile, the popup takes up a large chunk of the screen.
CleanShot 2023-10-06 at 08.58.32@2x

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How is that “technically false”?

I said that it was for premium users. Which both Notion and Taskade indeed have UNLIMITED AI for paid users.

Your reference to Notion only backs up my point. Of course they are going to have in their terms that they might “REDUCE” (not restrict) usage if a user is misusing AI.

And then your point about Taskade does the same in that it backs up exactly what I said. lol

Regardless, not sure what point you’re trying to make other than confirm that both Notion and Taskade indeed have unlimited AI plans for their paid users. Coda on the other hand has a highly restricted credit based system for all users.

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Coda over the past few weeks has gone bonkers with their changes. After being a hardcore Coda fan and bringing it into two organizations, I can’t recommend them anymore.

What was a snappy little amazing tool has turned into a mess of monetization. I’m fine with paying for AI usage but throwing a limit on it, with no warning from what I saw, no way to buy more, and even including the previous months usage having it hit against the new limit… purely poor decision making.

Seriously, why on earth would you have me exceed my AI usage before I even have the chance to know there was usage in the app?

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The two 40-minute YouTube videos I requested for summarization drained all my credits. I can achieve this at no cost using Chrome extensions. Notion AI offer a better feature with much better size.

CODA must address this issue. For meaningful AI-driven work, these limitations are impractical. We either remain constrained to minor tasks within one or two columns of a single DOC or seek a more efficient system.

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How is that “technically false”?

“Technically” comes from technical. Marketing copy is not technical. According to the marketing you would conclude that they offer “unlimited” AI usage. Of course, marketing is known and valued for making sales, not for honesty and transparency.

And what I pointed out, is that in the case of Notion, they have undisclosed limits. Limits that they don’t tell you. So there are limits, therefore, it is not “technically” unlimited.

Taskade, on the other hand, has even less transparency than Notion on their page. If you read their pricing page, you would assume that AI is “unlimited” from the 8 USD Starter subscription, because they only mention credits for the Free account. But the reddit post that I shared earlier said that the “unlimited” starts at the 40 USD “Pro” subscription. They don’t mention limits anywhere but they do share that the underlying system is one of credits.

This is all marketing. And it clearly shows they’re not being transparent. There probably are limits, though no way to actually check.

Regardless, not sure what point you’re trying to make other than confirm that both Notion and Taskade indeed have unlimited AI plans for their paid users. Coda on the other hand has a highly restricted credit based system for all users.

I don’t know how you missed it (unless you didn’t read my post). My main point in all the posts, where I’ve even shown the math, is that a subscription model means you are overpaying for AI usage.
Maybe you should re-read the last part of the post where I compared the actual cost of the AI usage to the Notion subscription model, showing how much you need to generate to even break even.

As I repeatedly mentioned, I don’t care if you want to overpay for your usage through a subscription so you can feel that “unlimitedness” as long as there is the possibility for users to scale their AI usage cost according to the real value they get from such usage. It’s not really a big deal to set a cap according to your budget to avoid burning your credit card.

Of course, having a credit system, without the possibility of actually buying credits, makes no sense. I don’t know why Coda decided to deploy these changes without that in place.

I hope this clarifies to you what the previous post was about.

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ALL of AI is run on credits! And yet, I use Notion AI constantly and have never hit any sort of “limit”. Why? Because I don’t abuse their unlimited usage plan.

This argument is like saying Verizon and ATT don’t provide unlimited text messages because they track how many you use. Now, why would they track something like that if it’s unlimited?

Perhaps because if they notice you are sending 1,000’s of texts a minute, you are likely abusing the system.

Since they track how many texts you send, it’s basically the same as another provider that limits you to only 1,000 text messages. So you might as well just use the other provide.

This is for some reason the hill you are wanting to die on for no reason.

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We hear you, and genuinely appreciate all the feedback. It’s especially helpful to have all the examples of how and where you are using the credits. We read every comment, and a sincere thank you for your candor and thoughts. We’ll have more news on the credit system soon, and if we can help in the meantime (whether that’s to understand where the credits are going or clarify what has happened with your account) please let us know at support@coda.io.

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Thank you @DavidK. For those reading, the support team have been awesome on this issue. Can certainly recommend reaching out to them if your levels of frustration are red lining.

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Since they track how many texts you send, it’s basically the same as another provider that limits you to only 1,000 text messages. So you might as well just use the other provide.
This is for some reason the hill you are wanting to die on for no reason.

Nice strawman argument. Apart from the fact that rate limiting requests and token limits are not the same thing, and we just don’t know whether Notion is implementing both…
You conveniently completely ignored in all your replies all that I wrote about my main point, that I’ve summarized for you in this last reply:

My main point in all the posts, where I’ve even shown the math , is that a subscription model means you are overpaying for AI usage.
Maybe you should re-read the last part of the post where I compared the actual cost of the AI usage to the Notion subscription model, showing how much you need to generate to even break even.

It always was about price per usage. I don’t care about arguing about definitions of words.

“Unlimited” as a marketing term is valid (as I’ve said previously). Whether it is technically true will vary company to company and how they implement their service.

As of today, 10 USD buys 5.000.000 chatGPT3.5 turbo tokens. Which is roughly the equivalent of Harry Potter’s whole 7 book series multiplied by 4. Most users are not likely reaching that level of usage. So you wouldn’t hit a limit even if you exceeded that usage, because you’d be subsidized by the host of all the users that don’t use their cost.

Paying extra for a subscription is a perfectly valid position! It would be great to have both, in the sense that casual users that get more stressed with math go for the subscription, and small businesses and teams that are mindful of costs can still use AI and scale it according to their application.

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Especially when you compare the “unlimited” aspect, even if it’s just marketing as you say :slight_smile: .

But let’s also compare the price. When it was released, it should have had a feature for buying more tokens (other than buying other DocMakers), it’s safe.

Since you like to compare to notion here are some prices: the AI subscription is 10 euros on top of the pro subscription and per user (10ePro + 10eAI per user!). if you have just Pro plan.

Emi say : “As of today, 10 USD buys 5.000.000 chatGPT3.5 turbo tokens per user. …”
That’s right. And the person who pays 10e, only he can use it.
Those who are in the same space and want to use it have to pay an extra 10 (per user)!

Sorry, but we can’t compare it to Coda.

Right now, we’re paying the same as before, with a little AI credit, so we can’t complain. ^^

Indeed, they should have thought of a token-add system. They’ll fix it, they’re very open and listen to the commu.


I think 2 possibilities :

Pay an additional subscription with an “unlimited”.
- per user ? why not ? notion works like this. but coda is not notion :slight_smile:
- Risk of overpaying

Pay jeton, use your credit card and set a budget like GPT, which works very well.
- you really pay for what you consume. I think the best and most transparent way

A pleasure

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I think people are ready to hand you money for AI credits. I know I am. Don’t get me wrong, It’s great that you have it built into Coda. However, this was NOT thought out. Please release an update for independent AI credit purchases… something. In most cases, your model would work, however for the months of using AI and even personally testing AI models, the problem is that using AI is not a constant thing. It has it’s uses and sometimes that means a LOT, and sometimes just a few things. Stand alone AI credits takes care of it.

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2 days since the reset on AI credits and again they’re all used. So, now I wait another month for some more. Or I pay for another Doc Maker, which at this rate it would be a waste of time as it most certainly wouldn’t last for another week let alone a month.

Until there’s a better solution for AI credits, I’m getting off this treadmill and turning off AI; I’ll settle for my own intelligence.

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Yeah I really enjoyed using Coda AI when it was in beta. It was pushing me more and more to using Coda over Notion, which is what I have been using for years. However, as soon as 4.0 went live, all credits were used day 1 and I haven’t been able to use the AI features since.

Coda AI was lengths and bounds better than other solutions. But as they’ve done many times before, they squandered the opportunity to gain market share.

And this is coming from someone that has been a Coda user since you had to be personally invited to even use Coda.

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